WRDL Debate #2: The Wall: Cold Front vs ncordless- NO CONTEST | Page 4

Discussion in 'The War Room' started by Fawlty, Feb 5, 2017.

  1. Cubo de Sangre Gold Belt

    Cubo de Sangre
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    You should lead by example. Plenty of topics abound. Show us how it's done. Wheat from chaff, and all that.
     
    #61
  2. ens189 ELI-te Belt

    ens189
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    I'm not one of the main debaters.
     
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  3. Cubo de Sangre Gold Belt

    Cubo de Sangre
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    Do periphery debaters debate or just heckle? We need quality participants around here.
     
    #63
  4. ens189 ELI-te Belt

    ens189
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    I provided an expert opinion based on my work experience, did not tag either participant, and was attacked by one of them.
     
    #64
  5. Cid Silver Belt

    Cid
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    It's a bit of a wasted opportunity.

    A debate just on the economic viability of illegals would have been great.

    Very right/left debate but as an outsider I would have loved it.


    Don't forget cried like a little bitch in a pathetic display of rustled jimmies.

    *edit* can spectators attack spectators?
     
    #65
  6. Fawlty Silver Belt

    Fawlty
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    why are you doing this to me
     
    #66
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  7. Bald1 War Room Can

    Bald1
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    Those of you managing these debates need mod powers within these threads so you can nuke all this bs. Such as the following :
    Hey ColdFront, did the dog eat your homework?
     
    #67
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  8. ens189 ELI-te Belt

    ens189
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    That never happened.
     
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  9. Buck Swope Why can't I find a decent corndog?

    Buck Swope
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    Can somebody get this clown out of here? I'm enjoying this thread otherwise.

    [​IMG]
     
    #69
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  10. Lead /Led/

    Lead
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    As funny as that was, ens is on time out until the debate ends here.

    Everyone please respect the rules set up for this thread series. We will delete post of and/or temporary reply ban posters who fail to do so.
     
    #70
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  11. Fawlty Silver Belt

    Fawlty
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    Thanks, that guy was literally satan incarnate and was trashing my emotional state bigly. It's good to know I can do this and feel protected.
     
    #71
  12. Cold Front Red Belt

    Cold Front
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    Third Response to the Dissenting Argument (Cold Front)



    Why This Debate Matters


    Why debate building a wall? For most people it's not a consequential issue. Even its strongest proponents don’t believe it will solve the illegal immigration crisis by itself. Even the wall’s strongest critics have to admit that there should be more pressing issues of importance for them to argue against.


    But the wall is not just a project aimed at remedying the problem of illegal immigration. It can’t be addressed strictly in terms of a cost-benefit analysis.


    The wall is also a symbolic issue about what kind of country the United States should be. Will it continue to be wide-open, welcoming all comers? Or will it become much more selective in the sort of people it allows to settle here?


    Ironically, ncordless understood that in the part of his opening statement I most heavily criticized - his revisionist history of the fall of Rome. In his view, Rome fell because it believed in walls instead of assimilation; it tried to keep the German hordes out rather than welcome them in.


    I think that view is nonsense, but ncordless was on to something that many debate watchers in this thread are missing. This debate about the wall matters. It’s important. There’s a near perfect correlation between people who believe in building a wall and people who think illegal immigration is a major problem. Similarly, there’s a near perfect correlation between people who don’t want to build a wall and those people who have little concern for illegal immigration because they believe it is at most a minor annoyance and not worthy of the attention of a great nation.


    And what undergirds both beliefs - both for the wall and against the wall - is a peculiar understanding about what makes America great. In one view - the view I share - the US is great only because of its people. They made the country great. Bring in a different people and the country may not be so great. In the other view - the view ncordless seems to share and which is enshrined on the Statue of Liberty in an Emma Lazarus poem - the bounty and progressiveness of the American system lifts people up to greatness who otherwise, in other lands, would not be great.


    "Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she

    With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,

    Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

    The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

    Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

    I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”


    In this view, the United States can take in the “wretched refuse” and turn it into gold dross through the super magical powers of its Constitution and the strength of its national economy.

    [​IMG]


    This is what this debate is really about. Even when we discuss minor technical issues about the wall, keep in mind that the debate will still always be about something of much greater import.



    The Common Fallacy of ncordless


    In ncordless’s latest response, he makes a series of common errors in thinking. They revolve around the all-or-nothing fallacy. Here’s an example.


    “Anywhere on Earth where great walls of territorial defense once stood, from The Great Wall of China to the Maginot Line, you will find a place where an invasion took place anyway and was successful.”


    True. And every country which has built an army has suffered military defeat. And every country which has built a thriving economy has suffered poverty and depression. And every country which has instituted a fair criminal justice system still has people who have been wrongly convicted. Yet all civilized countries continue to do these things.


    Walls are not built because they are eternal projects of efficiency which will solve all of a country’s problems for all time. They’re built because they are needed, and they work for however long competent people can make them work.


    Walls won’t make America rich. They won’t take the place of a thriving economy and a first-rate military. They won’t make us more creative. But walls have their purpose, which is to keep people out (or in), and in that purpose they have worked well when defended by a competent people.


    And that’s why civilized people, from the ancient Chinese to the modern-day Israelis, have always built walls - to keep the uncivilized people out. America needs to do the same. It’s long overdue.

    [​IMG]


    This ncordless’ response about the wall has a similar all-or-nothing ring:

    "Cold Front notes that I bring up Visa overstays and admits that roughly half of all illegal immigrants did in fact come here legally, and that throwing our treasure away on a wall would have no impact. He calls this “irrelevant.” I disagree. If we are going to dump billions of dollars into a project, I would like it to have some sort of impact on the majority of the problem it is meant to address. Far from being irrelevant, it is an illustration of how a wall is a poor solution."

    "And Cold Front admits as much. He calls it a “part” of the solution. Of the approximately 11.1 million illegal immigrants living in the US, he says it will keep out tens of thousands."


    You almost always need more than one solution for any single problem. The wall does not solve everything about illegal immigration. Nor for that matter does any other restrictionist policy. But a wall does contribute to a solution in an impactful way.


    As for the tens of thousands every year who cross the border illegally, the late Senator Everett Dirkson had a funny quote: “A billion here, a billion there, pretty soon, you're talking real money.”


    Well, tens of thousands of illegals every year (a conservative estimate) add up over time. Fully half of the 11 million illegals living in the United States that ncordless cited earlier, for example, came over the border illegally. They didn’t overstay their visas. So a wall deals effectively with approximately half of the problem.


    We need to get beyond this all-or-nothing fallacy. No single policy will work by itself. Not a wall, not E-verify, not visa tracking.


    The Fallacious Comparison with the War on Drugs


    ncordless mentions the War on Drugs, which is a common comparison I’ve seen taken by libertarians whom I’ve argued against on this issue. (I don’t know whether ncordless is a libertarian or not.) They seem to believe that drugs are synonymous with people. ncordless writes:

    If the War on Drugs has taught us anything, it is that the only people who will see any real benefit from the war on drugs is those who traffic them. Building walls and militarizing the border will have the same effect. It’s already a bull market for trafficking cartels because of increased efforts at the border.

    But drugs, once imported, are consumed by users. They disappear. Drugs don’t need food, shelter, clothing, IDs, jobs, oxygen, water, etc.

    People are a much different commodity. They need all those things. They don’t disappear. They leave a trail. And if the U.S. provides enough disincentives for illegal immigrants, it can discourage them from coming.


    *****

    There’s a fatalistic approach taken by many people that there is nothing we can do about illegal immigration. The lure of coming to the United States is too great. Like widespread drug usage, it's just a problem we have to put up with.

    But the U.S. once curbed immigration radically from the 1920s to the 1960s - all without the advantages of a wall, visa tracking system, or E-verify.


    [​IMG]


    That lull you see reflected in the image above was the result of U.S. policy. All that was needed a virtual wall, a commitment made by the American people in 1924 that enough was enough, that the era of immigration was over. Those who argue that stopping illegal immigration is impossible need to explain how the U.S. did it so easily from the nineteen-twenties through the nineteen-sixties.


    You might ask, why did the lull stop in the nineteen-sixties? The answer is because the U.S. changed its policy. The U.S. Congress liberalized what were very popular restrictionist laws with the American public. Immigrants didn't just start flowing in on their own. They came in because they were welcomed by the U.S. government and businesses.
     
    #72
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2017
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  13. sickc0d3r Brown Belt

    sickc0d3r
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    Snowflake
     
    #73
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  14. Cubo de Sangre Gold Belt

    Cubo de Sangre
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    I think @ncordless' odds just went up tremendously.
     
    #74
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  15. Limbo Pete Super Samoderator Belt

    Limbo Pete
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    Oof
     
    #75
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  16. Fawlty Silver Belt

    Fawlty
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    Thanks. Now we move to the response to the Affirmative Argument, by @ncordless
     
    #76
  17. ncordless Red Belt

    ncordless
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    Point of Order?
     
    #77
  18. Fawlty Silver Belt

    Fawlty
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    The floor recognizes the gentleman, because he stumbles in drunk a lot. What can Chuck Norris and I do for you this evening?
     
    #78
  19. Caveat Mozart in a Go-Kart

    Caveat
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    Really? I thought that was pretty tight.

    Strong use of images, too.
     
    #79
  20. Fawlty Silver Belt

    Fawlty
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    I checked and it looks like we're good on the procedure, am I missing something?
     
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